Tamu McPherson:

Thank you for having us over. Edward. It's been seven years since our last conversation on Tamu’s Cafe. Seven years, but seven is my magic number, and I think it's really meaningful that you and I are sitting down now after the last two years where some of our conversation has been brought to mainstream light. Let's talk about you for a second.

Edward Buchanan:

I am American. I moved here after school. I studied at Parsons. I moved here to work for Bottega Veneta, and was the first RTW designer at Bottega Veneta. We're talking about ‘94, I think it was, something like that. So that was my introduction to Italy, and I remained here ever since. After my tenure at Bottega Veneta, I started as a consultant, meaning working for mostly luxury based brands, but I've done contemporary and mass market as well. In between those stages, I started my own collection. I started doing many other things as well, and in the interim of the last year, I've become the fashion director of Perfect Magazine. I have started several initiatives. The first initiative is titled WAMI (We Are Made In Italy), with Michelle Ngonmo and Stella Jean. We’re the founders. We have a group, a collective group, and we started this collective in a way, first and foremost, to support young talent, Afro-Italians, who didn't have the exposure that we, being professionals, think they should.

Tamu McPherson:

Seven years ago, when we were talking about some of the issues that we experience, People of Color, Black people, experience in Italy, especially in our industry, I don't think either one of us had any idea that you would have to step in the roles that you're stepping into today and advocate in the way that you are advocating today. At the time, I think especially for our generation, being vocal was the most relevant thing we could do. Because at that time, there wasn't an event that jarred people into action, as we've been jarred into action now because of George Floyd, because of the Black Lives Matter global movement. How has organizing and connecting with other figures like Stella and Michelle, who have been working in the industry and who have both been championing through their work? Because Stella has always championed the culture through her shows, through her collections. Michelle is the founder of Afro Fashion Association, and she's been working for years to get her designers attention. How has creating this bond with your partners, how has it changed you? How has it changed your point of view? How has it validated the facts that you already knew?  And how has that contributed to the way in which you work with them? 

Edward Buchanan:

You know, community has become even more important. And I think, me being a foreigner living in Italy, being able to somehow connect with other entities that exist in the space like yourself, because we can have the same conversation. We understand the space that we're in. We understand the issues that we're having within space, awareness. So the collective that we created was from a need and desire to make change within the space that we're working in a beloved fashion industry that we love, that we want to support, that we want to thrive in, but we also want to see a future for others. So the connection in that little triangle was, first and foremost, we wanted to say, Hey, listen, this is what we're dealing with.

We know it because this is our experience. This is our life, and we want that to change for the future. In doing so, you kind of had to step back and think, what kind of collective can we create in order to change the space without necessarily having to reach out to another organization and say, we need your help. We wanna be stable. We want to build our own bridges and discover who the allies are that are gonna be next to us when we build that, when we build this bridge to the future. So Stella and Michelle, were in the same position that I was in when we put this thing together, from very different angles. Stella is, still to this day, the only black member of Camera Moda.

So we wanted to create a proposed cultural reform. It started in many spaces, but the base was ‘education’. What happens within the education system? Why aren't Black and brown people arriving into the colleges? If we go into the exterior neighborhoods around Milan or in Italy in general, are Black and brown kids being taught that it is possible for them to go into creative fields? Question mark. If it's not, how can we do that?  If they arrive at the level where maybe they can go to college, but they don't have the funds, can we offer scholarship programs? Disadvantaged communities and disadvantaged neighborhoods and families need help.

We know that families, even mine or, or possibly yours, when we're growing up, we're not necessarily encouraged to be an artist, you know? They want us to be able to support ourselves. So, you know, we're doctors, we're lawyers. We're, we're a lot of other things. Encouraged to be things that bring money to the family. You know, you can draw or sketch on the side, you can sew on the side, but we want you to bring home the bacon. So, I know what it's like to find yourself in that space, and you feel like you don't see a reflection of yourself on the other side. And we wanted to make that change. We wanted to put this collective together to champion young talents that have been essentially erased from the fashion system because they have been erased. They're not present.

We can still name on one hand heads of houses that are Black. So it's our responsibility. I'm a designer, and I love design, and I love the world that I've created with my company and the other things that I do. But I couldn't go forward in an honest way without stepping back for a second and saying, what is this gonna be like for the future? Because I'm happy with my career.  I showed up here in Italy with a blue passport, and that was my privilege. If I showed up here with a passport that wasn't that pretty blue, it would be a very different space. I know that I am in the position to be able to assess the situation and then assist in making change.

And collectively, we were able to create this cultural reform. We were able to put together the Fab Five Collective. So each season, through the Afro Professional Association with Michelle, who does the essential casting of the talents, we choose five talents that we're going to promote. And every season we have five different ones. We're building Fab 5 International together. Fab 5 is part of the collective WAMI (We Are Made in Italy), which runs the program Unseen Profiles, which is the first database of BIPOC individuals. So this is not only creative, there are chefs, there are machinists, there are house cleaners, there are creatives at many levels. So from the level of internship to the professional. So we want to arrive at the point where corporations do not have any excuses. We can't find out from large scale corporations what they're holding. It's illegal. In America, they can tell you the percentages of Hispanic, they can tell you the percentage of Asians, they can tell you the percentage of Black. In Italy, we can't have that information. So we know, because we work within Italy and a lot of these companies, and we know that they're not holding. So this is where we are, we're working to make that change.

Tamu McPherson:

You mentioned allyship twice. Many people - well, if you're meeting Edward now, Edward has come up with a pedigree and a yearbook. He's in a class of many designers. In your year, in your class can you just mention some of the other names that our guests might recognize?

Edward Buchanan:

When I first arrived in Milan, they're still my friends, you know, so there was Ricardo Tisci, there was Dean and Dan. There was Neil Barrett. There were so many, and it was very natural. This was my crossover. I think that was a really interesting energy in the nineties into 2000. It was a really interesting creative energy. We were young. We were still going out a lot. I think everyone that I met I probably met at the club. 

Tamu McPherson:

So what did allyship look like then, within this very close knit group? Because you guys are very close to this day, to almost 30 years later. I see you guys supporting each other at each other's shows, each other's events. So whenever you need to show up, what did allyship look like with the non-Black designers that you came up with?

Edward Buchanan:

Well, there were very few of us that were non-white designers. You know, there was me, there was Lawrence, there was Warren Davis, who was working for Joe Sanders at the time. And coming from New York and arriving in Italy was a bit of a shock for me, because, in New York in the eighties and nineties, I was in a multicultural environment of people and personalities and conversations that you could easily exchange. In the beginning stages I found myself as a visitor, you know, a foreigner. I think living in Italy, being a foreigner, and or even if you are not white, you're not necessarily considered an Italian. And so I found myself in this environment where I was always having to explain my existence with my close knit friends that began when we began a relationship.

And they understood the position that I had in my life, and where I wanted to go. I think it was more, I was just Edward to them. So they didn't necessarily understand why I questioned things. Or when I said I walked into a grocery store and I was being followed, a lot of times the response would be, oh, I'm followed too, when I go to the grocery store, or when I'm always stopped at the airport. In the beginning stages was a blow off in many cases. And it was obviously my responsibility to say it, listen, no, this is x, y, z, this, these are the things that I'm dealing with. You're gonna be with me here. We're going to understand each other, and I'm going to explain to you why this exists and why this is different.

Why we're living in very different spaces within the community didn't always go so well. Close friends that understand you, obviously, they really understand you, but there's always a big conversation, even with my closest friends. There have been instances - I remember talking years ago about what inclusivity meant on the runway. And this was before the big conversation happened. And many of my close friends chalked it up as aesthetic. They always said, oh, you know, this is the designer's aesthetic and this is what they want, then this is acceptable. But then in return, I was always explaining, well, you know, these are global companies. There's a global business. They hire Black and brown people to sell their clothes in the store. Why wouldn't that be a reflection on the runway? So once you start to put, you know, align the things in, in a parallel way, and really explain to them, you know, when they're open and they understand you, then they listen. And that's the most important thing: when you have that exchange and they're listening as opposed to talking, because that's the only way that we move forward, is that when we talk from experience, the person that you're talking to has to listen. Otherwise, you're just gonna butt heads.

Tamu McPherson:

Now, I want to ask you a question. Do you think that coming up and all of this, all of the time, all of the conversations you've had with these industry leaders - because your friends are industry leaders now, you guys are at top houses, you guys are really, creating the direction and moving the needle, in terms of what we see in fashion. Do you think that that has prepared you for the conversations that you have to have with decision-makers at brands within the scope of your work with Michelle and with Stella at WAMI? Because I know you personally, and I know that you are a holder of space, and I know that you are very capable of maintaining a space so that conversation can, can be productive. Do you think that this past 28, 30 years has brought you to a very key time where you can be communicating in the way that you need to communicate to people who you are not intimate with about being allies and about creating a situation where there is equity? 

Edward Buchanan:

All three of us enter this from a position of experience, and experience in Italy, working in Italy within the fashion system, within and around the fashion system. So we knew very well what we were dealing with in our three, let's say worlds, lanes - which are sometimes three lanes. We've all hit walls in certain places. You know, we're still staring up at that glass ceiling. You know, we've all arrived at points within our career where, where we were or held back, or we had to curve around to go through. In the fashion industry, there's still this glass ceiling. There's still this triangle and these power holders at the top and the power holders at the top don't necessarily think that there does exist a problem within the system.

And if you can't admit that there is a problem within the system, then you're not going to make any effort to actually change it. So when someone is attempting to remind you that this is happening and you're not listening to it, obviously that makes it very, very difficult to change the system. What we have to do is create our system. And it doesn't necessarily always align with the fashion system. Afro Fashion Week is a system within itself that supports these talents, that nurtures these talents, that discovers these talents. A lot of these talents that have been working within the Italian fashion system, no one ever saw, no one was ever interested to see them. No one was ever interested to see culturally what they had to say, how they reflected on the creative process. These are individuals that live and breathe the same areas we do, but they don't have the opportunity and the chances to be seen.

So when we're working with the structure of the Italian fashion system, we have to lay it out in black and white, and approach them with proposals, which can also sometimes be challenging for them, because they don't necessarily understand. And if that doesn't work, then we have to figure out how to go to the right, how to go to the left, or how to go over them. It's a never ending story somehow, but it's the only thing that I could do right now. My interest in building these initiatives and this community is from a very honest place. It's not to be confused with a Vogue cover. It's not to be confused with a pat on the back, a conversation, because I really don't care about those things. What I really care about is the shift and the change of an industry that I love. I love fashion. I love working in fashion. I love the work that I do. I'm still inspired after all of these years. I'm still inspired, but I can't walk into a space or be invited into a space. And I arrive there and I'm the only Black person that's in the space. It's impossible.

The brands and the corporations and companies that me, Michelle and Stella collaborate with, with WAMI and also with F Five, in terms of creating a real ally shift, they need to fucking do the work. Oh my God. This is the only way forward. They have to be willing to put in the time and the understanding in order for us to go forward.

Tamu McPherson

So, to your point about allyship, and to your point about doing the work, we were all there. We were all sitting in our living rooms. We were all doing Zoom calls with these decision-makers. There was so much attention directed towards diversity, inclusion and equity. Now that the world is opening up, that the economy is improving, we are already seeing a tendency to return to pre-George Floyd, pre-pandemic behavior. How can we keep the fire lit and keep these decision makers  accountable to doing this work that you're talking about. 

Edward Buchanan:

Accountability is important work, because it seals the conversation when they become accountable for their actions. And going back to George Floyd, the black box on social media when everyone said, we're here with you, we're here with you. And then we find ourselves kind of fading back and still finding ourselves really kind of - not at the ‘same’ point, but in a similar position for me. And I think the organizations that I work with, the only way forward is ownership. We have to build up strong and own our businesses, and we were able to create our actions in that way. So WAMI and Stella Jean for that matter, Afro Fashion Week, are companies that are owned by people of color. We own it. Equity and ownership is the way forward. Collaboration is the way forward. And if you're open to collaborating, and we understand each other and we can speak the same language, then we're willing to go forward. That's how you create collective allyship. But if they're not ready to hear us and they're not ready to collaborate, we're gonna do it on our own. 

It might take a little bit longer possibly, but, you know, we walk up the stairs, we don't have to take the elevator.

Tamu McPherson:

But what are the signals that we send to our youth that are coming up, you know, Michelle, Stella, yourself, the collective that you've put together. You're doing the work and you're holding the space for them to come up behind you, which is the most generous thing you can do by purpose, by self. Now, how long do we wait? You know, we now have a Black female Supreme Court Justice. We've waited a long time to see that day. I'm so happy to see that in our generation. She's only a few years older than us, so I'm feeling super stoked how this generation is different from our generation. This generation is more reactive, right? They're more about answers now. They're more about just completely writing off someone who is not willing to participate, contribute, be accountable, however they wanna play.

They want a seat at the table. They wanna play. Like, what's the timeframe? How do we determine a timeframe? What has to happen for us to say, okay, we've been here, we've been honest, we've really held your hands, so to speak, for so, so long. We're continuing to do this and we're patting you on your back. When you have those moments of vulnerability, when you see how hard the work is, right? Like, when do we start? Is it a parallel thing? You guys already have your solidified businesses. Is it a parallel thing where we're also creating micro-ecosystems for these youth coming up? Is that what you're doing? I mean, with Fab Five, in a sense, that's what you're doing.

Edward Buchanan:

WAMI and the Fab Five collective and Unseen Profiles all work in this kind of triangle, in that way. And I think what you're saying is really, really important because professionals like yourself, like Jordan Anderson, like Celia Sears, you know, there are all these independent Depop workers, young people, young talents, young writers, young content creators. They need to have someone that they can look up to. They need to have people like us that are professionals in the business to guide them, to mentor them, to be available, to explain to them. It's not gonna be a straight road. You know, you're gonna have to curve and weave inside out and really understand the industry. You know, you know, when we were young, my mother always told me that I was always gonna have to do double the work and then show up looking, dressed to impress, impeccable, flawless. 

There was no space for mistakes. You know? And I think that still serves and, and it's unfortunate that we have to put that pressure on ourselves. But we have had giants before us. I mean, you know, my collaboration with Virgil was - 

Tamu McPherson:

It was immense. I'm sorry we haven't really spoken about this. Let's talk about Virgil, the legacy that he's left and how you entered into a space that he was in. Because I'm into holding space a lot. Sure. I've talked about that a lot because I understand that about you, but I also, I never knew him personally, but understand that he was doing that, as well. 

Edward Buchanan:

With a figure like Virgil, I was older. I was this kind of seasoned designer that existed within the system that a lot of people still didn't know. After 25 years of existing in space, being at the helm of an Italian luxury house, having their own business for more than 12 years, a lot of people in and outside of the industry still don't know me. Yes, I'm discreet. I work at my own pace. I do my own thing. I don't come out every season. I call the shots, because I've created my business in order to do so. But someone like Virgil, that I've known for years through Kanye, comes to me as a professional and says, listen, I love what you do.

I know that you existed within this industry. Let's collaborate and do something together. And he was brilliant in that. He was always looking for the undercurrent. He was always searching in and out. He was always supporting and encouraging and building talents. And the amount of initiatives and the amount of collaborations is not even known that the amount of work that he was doing behind the scenes, making these things happen. Collaboration with Andre Walker, you know.  It's interesting with Virgil, because he loved the creative process. You know, he loved the creative process and he loved collaboration within the creative creative process, because it brought something else to the table. And, and that type of figure for us and for young people to look up was just, was just incredible.

You know, he didn't have to call me. But that he aimed high, he aimed mid, he aimed low, wherever he thought or he could find interest in moving forward, the creative process and the conversation revolving around the creative process, and being Black within the creative process. Because at the end of the day, you know, that OFF-WHITE is an Italian business. It's a tight company. He took huge, huge steps in working in that process. And it was so organic, because my medium is in knitwear and he allowed me to be what I am. He allowed the process to run fluidly. He learned from me as much as I learned from him. It was a very beautiful and organic and interesting collaboration unlike anything that I've ever done before. It was really fluid and inspirational. I mean, what a great guy. Cheers to Virgil. Cheers to Virgil. 

Tamu McPherson:

Edward. As creatives of color, so much more is expected of us. We are expected to operate and perform at peak level all the time without rest, without falter, without any question to our ability. Superheroes. And we, like you said earlier, like our mothers tell us, we are supposed to bring it two times. We are supposed to be impeccable. We are supposed to get funding for our businesses where there is no funding. We're supposed to make ends meet, like you don't know. But at the same time, there's no rest. But we're also supposed to be able to contribute to the cultural conversation. We're moving the culture. We're ahead of the culture. We're contributing to the lingua franca of anything that's happening globally. And we're all supposed to be there. We're supposed to show up politically. We're supposed to show up when there's reconciliation. We're supposed to give and give and give. How have you, throughout your career, balanced all of this? Because you have done it well. You have been very discerning and, but you have shown up in ways that are very healing, that are very supportive. And this is for everyone. This is not just for our young Black youth creatives that are coming up. This is for everyone, and you do it so well.

Edward Buchanan:

I think when you work with honesty and compassion, you don't have the expectations of receiving a return on what you gave. And I think I was raised well. I work for passion and interest within the creative process. But at the same time, I'm very project and goal-focused. And I know the work that I do alongside others, I see a bright light at the end of the tunnel. And it's often hard for me to believe that I'm going to, at some point, reach that light. But I have to work with this passion and strength without being side-swiped. And it's not always easy to find people who are that patient who are not looking for a pat in the back, who are not in it for, let's say, ulterior motives.

It's very difficult. But I'm in it to make sure that the future is bright for us. And that seems very idealist, you know. You just keep working, and keep working, and keep working. And the return is gonna be that we create a better space for us, collectively, to work in. But I really believe it. 

I always have my boxing gloves on. You know, I'm not saying that I'm passively lied to these spaces, you know, I always say that I'm not interested in being invited to your table. I'm not interested in you giving me a table, I'm gonna build a table myself, and it's great. I can invite my friends in, but I want to arrive and be invited based on merit, based on talent, you know, based on all of those things that I bring to that table.

You just giving me the table, because you're here, could also be optics. And I'm not interested in optics. The optics of this industry is hiring an Asian model for an advertising campaign, hiring a Black spokesperson for a magazine, but not having anyone on the inside. Those are optics for me. And the optics today no longer work, because everything is transparent. We see it clearly. We clearly see it. And if we don't see it, someone else can see it and they're gonna point it out for us. 

Tamu McPherson: 

You know, the trappings are really irresistible, the accolades, like you said before, the pats on the back, you know, being included in these lists.  What would you reinforce in the minds of young creatives coming up after us when pursuing  these creative fields? Like how would you help them stay rooted?

Edward Buchanan:

If there's glossy and shiny right off the bat, then there's coal on the inside, you know? You gotta receive the coal and then you have to like, shine it and shine it and shine it until it becomes glossy, you know? It doesn't happen just like that. You know, I came to this country with a huge opportunity, and I worked really hard in school in order to be able to illustrate and present myself to a company that I, at that time, had no idea even who they were and what they did, and how important it was to be at the helm of the luxury house. So I was completely blind to the fact that this opportunity that was offered to me was larger than life for a 20-something year old Black boy from Ohio.

And so I knew when I arrived here that the work that I had to do in order to maintain was enormous. It was an enormous amount of work that I had to do. And I had to be focused. When I realized that I was in this space that was unfamiliar to me, when I realized that I was in a space that wasn't always gonna be supportive of me, I knew that I had to work full speed ahead, and also with care, so I'm always shining that coal, you know? Shining the coal so that I learned along the way. Others learn along the way. 

The end result is that all of that time that it took to gloss that coal - it's like, you know, an old tree, the, the lines, when you're growing and you’re growing, and those are things that you carry with you. 25 plus years of design, 25 plus years of being Black in a space where there are a few others.  25 years of not receiving opportunities that your colleagues are receiving, 25 years of being told you're not good enough. All of these things are fuel, you know? And I would've collapsed and given up a long time ago if I hadn't the internal strength and focus on believing in myself. But, you know, that starts from the beginning stages. That's the foundation of, of knowing that, um, with, with hard work, great therapy, great friends, great family, all of those things are super important. I sleep really well at night. I really do. I sleep really well at night right now. And I know that the work is not done.

I know that my processes can be chaotic. But I like it this way. And I like the challenges, and the way that I'm approaching life in parallel to the work that I do and the work that I have to do. My design job as a creator is stable. I've reached a certain point within the industry that I'm very happy with. I don't have to ask anyone for favors. I don't have to rely on anything, but that's here and I will maintain that. But next to that, two steps ahead of that, is building a comprehensive and functioning space for creatives from disadvantaged communities that do not have the possibility..

Tamu McPherson:

You know, what you've said reminds me of the times that I've traveled across America on road trips. I've looked at a lot of trees, and so the tree continues to grow, and the roots, and it creates like a network that is incredible under the ground.

Edward Buchanan:

Exactly. Signaling,

Tamu McPherson:

Signaling. And it's a whole other world. And it's so beautiful. And when I reflect on what you said, I think in this generation, it's very tempting to say, ‘I've arrived’, and ‘I'm doing it’. And look, because I have this great title, or because I've done this, it means that I've arrived. You've accomplished something. But with your platform, what are you going to contribute to this world, your world, your industry? Do you see that you are wealthy in terms of what you can contribute? So you're there with yourself, with Stella, with Michelle, with Virgil , you then have platforms where you can be helping. So when you said that, it just reminded me of the tree and reminds me that the tree grows for hundreds and hundreds of years. 

And I think that this new generation has to understand a ‘title’. An accolade is not - it's wonderful. You've worked hard, sure.

Edward Buchanan:

And what does that mean? What does winning mean? Is winning based on wealth, is it based on opportunity? Is it based on access? Like what does winning mean? Because the kids  talk about winning, you know? Because I'm making a certain amount of money for doing a certain kind of job, maybe a job that I'm not trained to do. But for me it can be positive, but also can be disruptive. Because I think that winning for me is when I have a community winning, you know, is when a community of people are collectively building something.  and, and yes, in a respectful manner that flourishes and feeds a community over and over again.

That's winning for me. If I'm winning myself and I'm all alone, like, who the hell wants that? You know? That's like the deepest pits of hell for me. I really want to build up a fruitful community where we can lead off each other. That's what, when we talk about allies before, it's so important for me, you know? And the people that I love and the people that I trust when I reach my hand out, I need you coming through, and because we don't always have the possibility to pick up the phone and call who we need to in order to make these things happen. When you have access, access is power. Access is numbers. So if you're an ally of mine, like Rihanna said, roll up. You gotta show up. You have to be ready and prepared to lift up.

Tamu McPherson:

So, in just two years, WAMI has really shaken up the Italian fashion industry, and you have attracted a lot of important eyes that can hold that fire under the decision-makers booties, as we say.  What kind of support do you think that you guys will continue to need going forward? And where do you see WAMI? Where do you see the Unseen Profiles? Where do you see these initiatives in the next five years?

Edward Buchanan:

For me, we're still just starting. It is a process here that has to have very long legs, because we're just in the beginning stages, when we started, people feared us, didn't want to look at us in Zoom calls. They didn't want to immediately respond to our messages. Because for them, we were problematic in questioning a system. And when you question an established system, then you are trouble. So everyone wants to kind of shoo you out of the way. Because they don't want any problems. Post George Floyd, Breonna, all of a sudden even in the Italian fashion system, everyone was like, oh yeah, we really support what's happening over there in America. But they didn't really look inside, to understand and realize that the same things that were happening in America, on different scales, were actually happening here.  We have communities of migrants, Afro-Italians, first language Italians, second generation. And they were ignoring it essentially, invisible within the fashion space. So the collectives that we're building are supportive for the community, but we have to somehow show the industry that we exist and that we can do this. And then once we start to walk forward, you know, then we can start to think about, okay, this is a collective, we can really work together, but we have to maintain ourselves as solid entities on our own first, before we get the real respect from the other side.

With that said, we've had a lot of support. And from the first edition to the second edition, glossy magazines, great parties, that's all fine, you know, that's all beautiful and great and, and really appreciated. And the talents, they light up when they get attention. But that's only a portion of the work that we have to do, because the work that we have to do is inside. It's internal. How do you build up the strength and the endurance to not battle or fight, but to exist within an industry that you want to be in, and you want others to be in, that you feel like they don't necessarily want you in. So for the future, for WAMI, we are continuing as we go. And every season we get a little bit larger.

Tamu McPherson:

Is it like a slow and steady wins the race? Or is it like a marathon?

Edward Buchanan:

It's a marathon. Always running. We speed fast, speed ahead, and then we hit a wall, or let's say a hurdle. In hurdle runs, the hurdle gets higher and higher, and then you get to a point where you're like, wow, this is great. We have this great article, we get an intern here, it's kind of like you get these bits and pieces. You always feel like you're waiting for the approval of someone else. But at the same time, you don't give a shit about the approval of someone else, because if you don't build it within yourself, the people that are giving you the approval can easily disappear.  

And this is my point, is that we don't want to arrive at a point where we're standing on these stilts that are held out by someone else. We want to have the stilts ourselves, you know, and that's difficult… but it's better that way. It's better to build that way. We're super happy to exist. I walked by a store the other day and there was a shop assistant that was in there. He was Afro-Italian, and he was like, thank you so much for the work that you do. And that's huge. And that means that people are watching, and people are joining in the process. Because it's not about me. It's not about Stella, it's not about Michelle. It's not about Tamu. It's about that.

Tamu McPherson:

That's why I love you.